Saturday, 09 May 2009
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Currently
The Sirens of Titan: A Novel
By Kurt Vonnegut
see relatedI finally have a little bit of time to write, and a little inspiration to write with. But this will be short because I am tired.
Pascal's wager is a meager attempt at tricking people into faith. It basically says that the believer has a better chance at enjoying eternity than a nonbeliever based on a very simplistic idea. If god and if believer: heaven, if no god and believer: meh, if no god and and no belief: meh, if god and no belief: shit.
It seems convincing if you agree with the assumptions that there are gods, afterlives, and that the approval or dissaproval of the one leads to the standard of comfort in the other.
A Christian, a Muslim and a Jew walk into a bar. One says I know my god is the god and he will take me to heaven because I believe it is true. Another says, "interesting. I completely agree. I also know that my god is the god and he will take me to heaven because I believe it is true." The third says, "This is amazing. I agree with both of you. I had no idea you were both the same faith as me. Isn't it great to be a Jew?"
The Christian says," I am a Christian and you killed my Savior."
The Muslim says, "Your Savior is a fraud and a blasphemer, and you are an evil westerner."
The Jew says, "You both are foolish to be following these false prophets."
The Muslim says, " You both are infidels."
the Christian says" you both are heretics"
the Jew says" Neither of you were chosen for a reason."
And then the bar explodes.
The moral: Don't mix spirits with spirits, or you get bombed.
Not bad for my first Atheist joke, huh?
Any way, the point is that Pascal overlooked the fact that there are many different religions and philosophies about life, the universe and everything. To truly evaluate pascals argument correctly, one must understand that there are more variables than just god/ no god and believe/ don't believe. If it's even ok to assume (which I don't think it is) that whoever is right about the unknowable gets to go to heaven and all others go to hell, that means that the chances that a muslim or a jew or a christian, or a mormon, or a taoist, or a bhuddist, or a pagan, or even an atheist plus however many other religions there have been, are and will be... is exactly 1/all the previously listed choices.
People who buy Pascal's wager at face value without considering all the different possiblities that whittle their chances down are not thinking clearly. They are playing roulette for a ticket to heaven, and they always bet red with out counting to see how many other colors are on the wheel.
The Pascal wager doesn't determine who is right between the Muslim, the Jew or the Christian or any others and I know for a fact that the J's, C's, M's and the mormons all claim that whoever doesn't believe THEIR story is fucked.
Face it. All the Holy books are made of the same stuff that Paul Bunyan is made of. Legends. Nothing more.
If you don't believe me, suite yourself. He is polishing his axe to come and git you.
Kaboom.
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Comments (10)
Joke was funny...
Inaccurate, but funny.
Pascal wasn't arguing for a specific Religion, just for God in general.
And not all J's C's M's and Mormons believe that if you don't conform to their religion, you're fucked.
It's called Pluralism, babe. There are multiple ways up the mountain...I might choose my path, but that doesn't make your path anymore incorrect.
It's not super prominent in Judaism or Christianity...It's actually much more popular in Islam since they tend to have a tolerance for "people of the book."
(Unfortunately the creeper Muslims you deal with are the freak minority.)
I wish every day that we were in religious studies classes together, cause I think we could banter back and forth rather intelligently.
I don't know who told you that the muslims I deal with are a minority, but that person is fucking retarded. I get so sick of people who have never been here telling me they know more about a culture than I do. Especially when I am the infidel that gets shot at. Have you ever been shot at Vicky?
And if Pascal was not specifically choosing any one religion in his argument, he still was assuming that being right causes you to go to heaven. This in itself is the problem.
So how does your idea of pluralism balance with Jesus saying "I am the truth, the life and the way." or "people are like trees. If they don't believe in me, set them on fire." Or many of the chapters of the Quran which specifically state that Jesus was not the savior and that those that believe it to be so will go to hell.
I have a feeling I am butting my head against a wall. Talking to you feels like a real waste of time on this subject.
Go ask your fucking pastor how many ways there are up the mountain. I dare you.
@Fbomb_hohmann - I don't have a pastor, actually...but thanks. I'm not a very big fan of mass organized religion at this moment in my life.
No I haven't been shot at, but you being in Iraq dealing with a small sub-culture of people doesn't make you a fucking expert on everyone within that people group. Read a book or something.
Give me religious passages, not shit that you make up, and I'll talk to you about it further.
Jesus did say, "I am the way the truth and the light, no one comes to the father except through me"...that's accurate.
As for Jesus saying he will light people on fire...I think you're referencing Matthew 3:9...and that was said by John the Baptist. In reference to those who were false believers...so called tongue-in-cheek. He told them essentially that the one to come, Jesus, would see through that, and they would go to hell...not be literally TOSSED into a fire.
But until you've actually read these books, and the context there in...and I'm not talking fucking wikipedia, you can't make an informed decision on it. Bible or Qur'an.
I wasn't saying that Pluralism made sense, all I said was that it exists. How does that create a problem. He says there either is a God, or there's not. Believing in one aids in moral decision making...therefore he thinks it's better to believe. As for the choice that there either is a God or isn't, that's right. I will admit that his assumption that you will be more moral if you have a god is a bit shaky.
And I feel the exact same about bashing my head against a wall...I'm not expecting to change your mind on anything. Just being able to properly understand religious beliefs and why people have them is my goal.
So Iraqi insurgency is a minority subculture. The strict interpretation of Shariah law here is totally unrepresentative of Islamic Culture? This is the only place where Muslims kill people because they don't believe in Islam? I should go read a BOOK?
What about AFRICA, INDIA, IRAN and many other places where strict Shariah law is present and dominant in the culture? I would like to know what books you are reading. I would also like to bring you here and put you in a guard tower for a week, or maybe an Entry control point. We could use another female to search the women for BOMBS.
You are an extremely arrogant person to think you know so much from your ivory tower of education. But guess what... In the grand scheme, nobody is ever going to give a shit about what you think because you are not in a position to know the truth, mentally or physically.
If you really want to know all there is to know about faith based atrocities and how the average person of faith comes to commiting horrible acts of persecution, STUDY HISTORY. Here are a couple books to get YOU started.
Mein Kampf (Adolph Hitler)
God is not Great (Christopher Hitchens)
The Satanic Verses (Salman Rushdie)
The End of Faith (Sam Harris)
I see that you have decided to become even less rational than you were before. Not only do you still believe in this voo doo bullshit called "faith", you now believe that, even though all holy texts clearly say they are the ONLY TRUE TEXT, YOU are able to believe that they are all RIGHT.
I'll read the books this summer and get back to you.
(This whole semester I took a class on wars waged in the name of religion...so thanks for assuming I don't know anything about it. I've studied Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, and Judaism. I've got a general idea of how it works. So...thanks for the advice)
I never said I BELIEVED this so called "faith bullshit" as you call it...I only claim to be able to have a basic understanding of it. I also don't believe all the religions are right, so if you got that from what I wrote, I'm sorry. I was only saying that is a belief held by some. (and all holy texts DO NOT say they're the only true text...Jews and Muslims believe that as long as "non-believers" live the life that God/Allah intended, they have salvation...Christians are the exclusive ones.)
As for the me never knowing truth...neither will you. So what makes your opinions so much better than everyone's...especially mine?
Sharia is like any law...it can be misconstrued and twisted to the "liking" of others. American Judiciary system is no different...Half of our constitution is TOTALLY fucked up right now based on different interpretations, and how it's had to be changed since 1774. I guess Sharia would be no different...
However, as for specifics, I'll have to say that I'm only vaguely familiar with any constitution governed by Sharia, so I concede that you may have a better understanding.
I think a lot of what you're writing could be true...but you just telling me that I don't know anything, and the people I study from (who have lived in countries governed by Sharia) are idiots, doesn't make me want to listen to you. I want to write you off as an ignorant fool, but I know that's not true.
You're one of the few people I know that challenges my thought processes and views in this way...and I'm sorry if it irritates you, but it has helped me to develop and understand the world in a way I was never able to before. Don't get PISSED at me about things...help me to learn.
I was serious about reading the books...and I have some you might enjoy...The Ethics of War (Richard Sorabji) The Horrors W Bless (Daniel C. Maquire) and Non-Violence: The History of a Dangerous Idea (Mark Kurlansky).
I will check those books out. Sorry for tearing your head off. It's been rather crazy out here lately and I didn't sit down and read what you wrote carefully.
Are you just trying to figure out what makes people believe in the supernatural?
I think it's a mix of the questions we don't have answers for combined with human impatience that causes us to make up answers. As far as knowing the truth goes, I feel that it is more important to get rid of the clutter on your desk before you use it to work on, if you know what I mean.
These archaic religions are old ideas from people who didn't know the things we know now. It's clearly evident that the claims they make about the supernatural are made from the same stuff as folk lore. No maniac has ever escaped from a mental institution and left his hook hand on someones passenger door, for instance. Its just a story that got blown out of proportion. It's possible that there once was a person called Paul Bunyan, but it is definetely IMPOSSIBLE that he was a giant to the scale shown in many of the books about him, and yet children believe it's true because they have no frame of reference for normality.
It's the people who strive to refrain from the frame of normality that the rest of us share that generally end up believing in these religions devoutly and, sometimes, running them. Why do the rest of us feel pressure to take these crackpots' bullshit opinions and treat them with reverence? Where do we draw the line about what is sane and what is not?
I draw the line when it comes to this faith thing. If it were an absolutely good and useful thing, like reason, there would be no question in society as to whether or not it is real. But it isn't entirely good. It is the purposeful blinding of one's reason for the sake of a quick, uncheckable answer about where we come from, where we are, and where, if anywhere at all, we are going. Those types of answers do nothing to help us understand existence. In fact, all they do is clutter the desk that we have to figure out that answer with. I say, burn the clutter, clear the desk. Start over from the hard wood of the desk surface with the technology and facts we have now, and then we can get somewhere. If it's easy for us to go through our days without sacrificing someone occasionally to the sun, then maybe it's ok to get rid of all the other crap as well.
@Fbomb_hohmann - I appreciate the appology.
I think we need several drinks, and all the time in the world to talk...
I'll get back to you later on the other stuffs you wrote.
You got a gift for words...Everything you said makes sense, and I'd say agree. Now I've got some more books to read.
My desire to understand things my be the death of me...but I think knowledge would be a good way to go!
The Iraqi insurgency is rooted more in the 1) the struggle for power by various groups and 2) the desire to feed one's family than it is in religion. Religion is a very distant third place in the reasons for their violent behavior. However, Islam does play a much greater role for the violence in Afghanistan. Them niggas is crazy.
So Jay, have you heard about Pakistan's problems with the Taliban lately?